2005-03-17 [freakchild]: yeah..lol....they're about half as big without all the fur...sooo cute...this guys only 26 inches tall

2005-03-18 [stephomelon]: Lol, It looks like a llama in the second one, with all the woolies on the shoulders and the sticky up forelock, hehe.

2005-03-18 [freakchild]: lol...yeah he does look pretty funny....he refuse to let me shave his forehead at all. we usually just shave heads and necks in the early srping, because the poor guys don't shed as fast as the *big* horses, so they get to hot. It's also easier to judge their body condition when you can actually see part of them. They get full body clips around mid-April usually. 

2005-03-18 [moira hawthorne]: I had a friend who bred and showed ababs and they were very furry in the winter.... never think that of a desert horse... but they adapted to the Canadian Winter!

2005-03-19 [Rydia]: neat

2005-03-19 [stephomelon]: My pony is just fuzzy, no matter what season it is. As soon as he loses him winter coat he grows it again...I'm forever having to get all the loose hair off him.

2005-03-19 [Rydia]: hehe...a fuzzy situation...

2005-03-19 [freakchild]: lol.....yeah...thats why we body clip them....is we waiting for them to shed it all out we'd only be able to show for like one week in august....then...winter coat comes back

2005-03-20 [stephomelon]: I can't clip my pony, because he refuses to wear rugs so he'd catch a cold.

2005-03-20 [stephomelon]: lol, BEFORE

2005-03-20 [stephomelon]: and then AFTER (and with a bit of an odd angle) aww, I love this photo. He has such an enquiring expression him his face. I just want to hug him!

2005-03-20 [Rydia]: yay! *tosses pony treats*

2005-03-21 [Roccoriel]: So, I dunno if y'all have been to the Pilot Point area of TX but that's mecca for anyone who's anyone in the QH world. All along highway 377...million dollar sires, worldchampion trainers and so forth. He's me with Smart Little Lena, if you don't know that name then pick up any performance horse magazine!

2005-03-21 [abandonedhouse7 7]: I dont know that name... but then I'm British/Canadian living in Wales, so... *shrugs*

2005-03-21 [stephomelon]: I know the name...and I'm an aussie who has never paid much attention to perfomance horses.

2005-03-21 [abandonedhouse7 7]: He looks nice tho. ^_^

2005-03-22 [Roccoriel]: He's 26 y/o and is one of the most influential sires in the cutting/reining/cowhorse...esp cutting rings. He's currently owned in shares and if you can get your mare booked to him his stud fee is $25,000

2005-03-22 [freakchild]: yeep....$25,000??....I don't care who the horse is...I would never pay that stud fee

2005-03-22 [Roccoriel]: well, consider if you get a colt by him that can win at least that much plus more than pay for himself in stud fees...or a filly who can be a producer. And that's nothing, the thoroughbred race horse stallion storm cat requires a $500,000 stud fee...live cover only and no live foal guarantee.

2005-03-22 [Roccoriel]: Anyways, if I had the money I'd love to breed my mare to Smart Little Lena...course, I don't have the money and she's not a high enough caliber mare or proven enough to get a booking.

2005-03-22 [Roccoriel]: Consider, when you breed, half of your foals genetics come from the sire and half from the dame...what you get as a foal is directly linked to that consideration. There's some good articles on PHAE about breeding.

2005-03-22 [Leaegd]: I never heard of it, but it's a beautiful horse... But then, I'm not very into reining and stuff.. I'm mostly busy with Belgian Warmbloods, so ...

2005-03-23 [freakchild]: meh....sorry...still wouldn't pay that. I come from the arab world, so i guess that just seems a bit ridiculous to me. i've found, that if you know what you're doing, and what to look for, and where to look for it, you can find a stud who is just as talented, well conformed, and as great of a sire, for a fraction of the price, simply because they haven't been promoted nearly as much, or aren't owned by high profile farms

2005-03-23 [01234]: That is true in a lot of cases, for sure, but I will say that the Arab world has just as many insanely priced studs as any other breed, and I am also part of the Arab world as well as AQHA.

2005-03-23 [stephomelon]: Well, I can't really say I know anything about breeding and pedigrees at all. I'm not into that sorta thing, atleast not at the moment. I'd prefer to event, and your horses doesn't need to have brilliant lines or even look god for that. He just has to know what he's doing and do it well. Crosses tend to be just as good for eventing as horses with pedigrees, sometimes better.

2005-03-23 [Roccoriel]: But that's a very typical mentality and the primary reason why eventers, jumpers and race horses are not pretty, conformationally correct or all together sound because, as you said, as long as they can play the game who cares? Never mind that performance is the least heritable trait while structural ones are the most heritable...you see, once you become more competitive and involved in the horse industry the more you'll find that good breeding and good performance go hand in hand because they do in all events though, in eventing it it only at the top level right now where the competitors have made that connection.

2005-03-23 [freakchild]: I've found AQHA stud fees to be much higher then Arabs.......Almost all top Arab studs have fees ranging from $3000 to $8000...and I've only seen a few that go over $5500

2005-03-23 [01234]: Well I've seen arab studs much higher than that, to the $20,000... it's in ever breed.

2005-03-23 [Roccoriel]: The average stud fee for quarter horses ranges between $1000-$3500

2005-03-23 [freakchild]: That's about average for Arabs as well. Now for Miniatures on the other hand, the average is between $100-$300....which I think is way too low. These are stallions that are shown, promoted, and had quality foals, and the owners aren't even getting back what they put into it. And as far as the live foal garantee, I wouldn't breed to any stallion without one. I would think any breeder who believes their horse is a strong producer would have one, especially with that high of a stud fee. If something should happen and the foal is lost, you should at the very least get some of your money back, if not prefeably a free re-breeding, or an equally valuble foal by the stud....something

2005-03-23 [Roccoriel]: Minis? My friend breeds them and good mini's bring the same stud fees that larger horses do. Also, the reason some stallions are priced so high is they're worth it. They're good stock, their offspring are of high quality. If they weren't people wouldn't pay. Also, the TBs by only doing live cover keep the number of foals per stallion much lower than those which do AI. By simple supply and demand fewer foals means a higher price.

2005-03-23 [abandonedhouse7 7]: I don't know about any of this: I have geldings. :P Although our Arab was a stallion til he was 8 years old... and then we had him cut cos he was getting no mares. Then 2 weeks later we had 4 mares avaliable... too late! :S

2005-03-23 [moira hawthorne]: that sux! poor boy!

2005-03-23 [abandonedhouse7 7]: lol, I'm not sure whether he was told... but he's been trying to be the man ever since. He treats my dressage horse, Sparks, like a mare, although admittedly he is a wimp. But he's my wimp and I love him. ^_^

2005-03-23 [moira hawthorne]: lol.... I had a mare that was gay! much to the shock of the mares!

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: lol.....well....the highest mini horse stud fee i've ever seen was $1000.....and i agree lots of horses are worth quite a bit, as are their foals....a lot of people pay the price based mostly on pedigree and show record....which is mostly political anyway....its the name you pay for more then anything

2005-03-24 [Roccoriel]: That's not true. Take reining for instance. A grade horse out of a stud w/ a $250 fee is not going to perform as well as a Hollywood Dun It foal. No matter how much training you put on him. Genetics influence what the horse looks like and it phyiscally and mentally capable of.

2005-03-24 [Roccoriel]: When you pay a stud fee you're not paying for the name, you're paying for the genetics that go with that name.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: thats not true.....just because a stud is a backyard horse, who has never been showed, or promoted, doesnt mean he isnt as capable, talented, or what have you....it simply means he doesnt have the same "name" in the industry, so his foals could be jsut as great as the said "great" stud......remember most sires who were influential in their given breed were unknown backyard raised horses with no name....there are great horses out there who are just not given the chance to prove themselves, be it because of money, or just that the owner has no desire to do so....it doesnt make them any less of a great horses.....just unknown

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Yes it does when it comes time to sell his foals. That is like saying I am the fastest person ever yet you'll never prove it. So why do you think that people will believe that just because you think he is the greatest. Genetically if he is that great he should perform. The industry is based upon the fact that the greats go out there and prove it against the toughies. Name one horse that was influential to the breed in the last 20 years that was raised in a backyard. There are none at all I can think of. Plus your place is a reflection of your professionalism, and if it your backyard, I would not pay you anything to breed to your crap.

2005-03-24 [01234]: I think it's just what you want to do with them... you can find some great genetics and potential really cheap if you try hard enough, or you can go buy it. My mare, for example, her parents did pretty much nothing but be farm/ranch horses their whole lives, but one generation beyond that she had stakes and performance winners in AQHA, and she is a loaded filly with unbelievable quality and potential... however, in general, a lot of backyard horses are on the downward slope of the genetic pool.... so like I said, you can really dig and look for the right genetics somewhere cheaper, or just buy them on a proven horse.

2005-03-24 [01234]: Scamper's a good example of that... so is Cigar... of horses that came from unknowns to be great... but they are fewer and farther between than the greats from the "known" horses.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: The whole reason that these horses are worth that much money is that they can go out and win it through their careers. IN my field, barrel racing, top horses go for $150,000. But they can win that in a single year. So that looks like to me a good investment. freakchild, if you want to be successful in the industry, you need to look at the top and what the people who are making the most money are doing, and not what the random backyard hick is doing.

2005-03-24 [Roccoriel]: What it comes down to is that horses cannot perform without talent and talent comes from genetics. I break a lot of young horses and you can tell within the first few rides whether that horse is well bred or not. There's a common saying among professional trainers which is: Show me the papers first and then I'll look at the horse.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: yes. thats all i was saying. for some people its easier to just buy the proven horse, pay the stud fee.......but i'd rather do my own research, find a horse who i can afford, yet who is just as awesome a horse as the top of the breed, it takes time, but i find is well worth it. I've never paid more then $2500 for a horse, and the horse i paid that for, if anyone knows arabs, is a khemosabi grandson, bask great-grandson, and gamaar great grandson, and who sire is a national champion western plesure horse.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Scamper is not what I would call an unknown. He is race bred and cost a bit for a gelding back in the day. He was more of an outlaw, like Cruiser and Charmayne dealt with their behavior. Also Cigar is pretty well bred, and out of a Seattle Slew daughter, so 99/100 chances those horses are great because of genetics. Plus I wonder if they would have passed that on (both don't have foals)? Very few horses come from unknown, shit breeding, to become the top of their field. We just have too much specialization going on and have to have the genetics to take them to the top. Even barrel racing is like that now. You simply don't find grade individuals at the top. Every horse that ran at the NFR -->

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: was a papered Quarter Horse, and all by well known stallions.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: freakchild, you are very niave if you think that you can take a $2000 horse and take it to the top of the equine industry. That hardly ever happens and only with VERY great riders, I mean top professionals, who are able to take on projects. And the examples I am thinking of are all well bred horses who just had training issues, so were athletic, just had some wiring off.

2005-03-24 [Roccoriel]: Also, so far as your arab, those are common lines and a bit far back. My little sister's arab goes back to bask but up close on her papers theres nothing and she's not going to take anyone to the top just because of that. It's like saying a quarter horse goes back to King or Leo...well...that's nice but most do, I look for performance in the grandparents or parents.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Why waste years of your life looking for that 1/100 horse that is litterly a near diamond in dung, while you can pay a little more for a well bred prospect who will 99/100 be successful? Sounds like a big waste of time and money to me. The well bred horse can take you to the top faster and a lot cheaper too.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: wow.....just because a horse was bred by a small breeder it is crap?? a small breeder can be just as, if not more professional then big farms. in fact i prefer them. just because someone has a small unknown farm, does in no way make their animals worth any less. again with the politics......so you would rather pay for the name of the horse, the name of the farm, and how much money the owners have, then quality of the horse alone? i can see it you just want to take otehrs words for it, and not doe reserach, go for big names rather then work out your own, but in no way to you need to call anyones breeding stock "crap" because of their political standpoint in the industry

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: No but the big places almost always have better horse than the small farms. I don't think you have any idea of what I am talking about but you really need to make a trip to Texas. I really don't get what you are trying to say.... the big places with the top horses have the top genetics. So how is this setting you back? After all you are getting the top genetics in the industry. HOw is that politics?

2005-03-24 [Roccoriel]: it has nothing to do with the politics, it has to do with the quality of the stock. That is to say, the genetics. Now, not all small breeders have poor horses but most do. Again, go with the rule of look at the papers before you look at the horse.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: i'm sorry, but i dont buy names....i buy horses......and with all the studying and time spent with succesful trainers, breeders and top show riders, i am in no way being naive. and since when are sires and grandsire nto up close on the pedigree? i'm sorry to disappoint you all, but im not just saying this because it sounds good to me, im saying it because ive spent most of my life learning how this industry works, what makes a great horse, a greta sire, a great dam, a great showhorse, pleasure horse, working horse, what lines produce best, what works when bred with what, i have studied horses until my brain explodes. i know what wins, because i know who the judges are and what they like

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: How many breeding farms have you worked at by the way? I have worked at alot and yes, the smaller breeder almost always has crappy genetics compared to the big boys. If they had a top horse than lots of mares would be coming and they would not be small anymore, would they?

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Really, why don't you name names? Lets hear all about the top people you work with? I buy a horse with good papers because they sell for more money period. They are almost always more competitive and that is an animal you want to select to pass its genetics on as it comes from a family of show horses and will most likely pass that on. How old are you freakchild? I really don't think you know as much as you think you do, or else you would understand what [Roccoriel] and I am talking about. Cuz its true.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: im not discussing qaurter horses, i am referring to arabs, as that is my breed of choice. but horse showing, and promoting, IS politics, there is no denying that. thats what it is, if you dont know that by now, you havent been into it very long

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: no, if it is a good horse, that doesnt mean lots of mares would be coming, as most small farms owners i know rarely book more then 5 mares a season, and spend no money on promoting, as they want to stay what they are, a small farm, and not bother with all the bullshit going on

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: No not really. The best horse wins. And for me, no no politics at all. Barrel racing is a timed event. We don't have politics. Whats funny is that I am younger than you, college educated and know what I am talking about. Tell me what is your experience, what are all the top people you have worked for?

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Ahhhh you mean be successful and make money?

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: If it was a good horse people would know about it and try to breed to it to get some foals that are as good as daddy.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Sounds like you have a bitterness going on if you blame your failure on the politics of judges. Sounds like an excuse to me.

2005-03-24 [Roccoriel]: no matter what breed you're talking about the industry still works the same

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: yeah, im sorry, but not all people get into horses to make money. some people actually do it because they just like teh horses, and want to make their small contribution to the breed......making money isnt what all people consider being successful.....i dont knwo why you are being so defensive.....lol...college education huh...wow..you must be proud.....that makes you so much more knowledgable...i bow to you

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: my failure??? lol....how is it i have failed.....because i said i wouldnt pay a $50,000 stud fee, because i could find one just as good ( however not promoted) for less money, if i just took the time to look.....oh yes....i am 21, and have failed in the breeding industry, because ive spent the last 15 years studying it before i got into it myself....oh no....what ever will i do

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Yep, since I go to the best school in the US for Equine Science, yes I feel alot more educated than you. And still all these great people you have worked with...their names? The fact is that unless you are doing this as a business you have no business breeding horses, that's why we have a slaughter industry. You don't see Smart Chic OLena or Shining Spark babies at a rendering plant, now do you? The bottom line is that I expect to go into horses as a business and to run a successful business you have to make MONEY. Do you expect $ to grow on trees to feed your horses? I would prefer it if these small breeders with their inferior genetics did us all a favor and not contirbuted to the breed.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: freakchild, have you ever worked with a breeding farm? Because if you are having the offspring of a no name stud, how do you expect to make money off of the foals? The breeding fee is a INVESTMENT. The top Quarter Horse studs are only around $25,000, which is very easily made in competition. Good luck to you because your theory will never work, ask any professional breeder.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: inferior genetics? and actually....yes...top nanme horses to go to slaughter...hundreds of them...and no, i expect to make enough money to keep my horses and i comfortable, i have no need to travel foreign countries on vacation, or pay otehr people to take care of my horses, because i got too many to care for them myself. And yes, i have worked with trainers at ventura farms, and greensprings arabians in california, vallejo III in oklahoma, as well as others. i see no reason why i should have to prove myself to you. and with this attitude, i dont see you selling to anyone other then money grubbing breeders such as yourself.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: which isnt much of a market, seeing as how, according to you, they all have superior horses, so why would they need to buy yours......oh , you are soo great...let us all give up our horses, so that only you may be in charge of it all

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: oh, im sorry....but as i said before...ITS NOT A THEORY....i have seen it work time and time again....i have work with breeding farms, big and small.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: What are you blabbering about the foriegn countries? I assume you are talking about the fact that I am traveling to, but actually they are JOBS breeding horses. Go figure, people in foriegn countries pay ME to come over and help them.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Really, my money grubbing? Jeez, cuz I expect my business to turn a profit and have expectations of feeding my horses? What a bad bad person I am!!!!! So let me get this straight, you don't want your business to make a profit? Wow, great job. ANd honey if I was in this for the money I sure as hell would not be in the Horse Industry. What pissed me off is ignorant people like you with on practical experience breeding horses, running your mouth like you know what you are talking about.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: So this theory of taking horse that are not advertised and have no show careers and you expect to make money standing these horses at stud? HOw does that work? Since they will have limited foals and then the foals sell for less money, how do you expect to turn a profit and feed the stallion?

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: wow, now your special.....sorry sweetheart....i wasnt referring to you....everything isnt about you;)....anyway...im off to bed....i have horses to take care of in the morning....my poor crappy horses with their great pedigree, conformation and pesonality (which some , as we see here, are lacking nice personalities), the poor things are so inferior, simply because i got them from small breeders, who can charge less for quality horses, because they dont pay to show or promote....oh boohoo....i feel so horrible that my horses are so incerdible shitty compared to yours.....come down off it hun....you not better then me because you have your "connections"

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: ok...when did i ever say thats what I was going to do?....no...i said i wouldnt never pay a fuckin $50,000 fee, because it was ridiculous....i never said i would show or promote my studs (although i sure as hell wont charge an arm and a leg to breed to them) i said i can find quality horses for a smaller price....obviously you dont know enough to do this, and need to go by names....no...i said when i bought my horses, i search for the best horse at the best price, and these are the types of farms i found them at, and that they are out there

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Sure that is why people in foriegn countries pay me to go over there. Guess you can say the same.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Read your comments, as that is exactly what you said.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: And yes I am proud that I go by pedigree as I am buying genetics. I won't buy grade horses or nonames. This will almost always not work out in the breeding shed. Period. WHo has the $50,000 stud fee anyways. NO one I know in QH. I wont bother to look for years and months for a suppousedly good horse that you have to find in soemone's backyard when I can stop at several places in Texas and get a way better horse for less money.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: wow..lol...you are full of yourself aren't you.....no hun....when i was talking about all that...i said nothing of doing it with my own horses, i said i knew people who have done it, worked with people who have done it, and buy from these people

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: i said nothing of grade horses....in fact your the only one who has mentioned grade horses

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: NO you did not, I did, So?

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Why don't you check out the leading sires? None are backyard horses, sorry to say and burst that bubble.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: leading sires of what...quarter horses? i already said im not into quarter horses, so i dont follow their pedigrees

2005-03-24 [Roccoriel]: leading sires in any breed

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: NO you have said that you plan on being successful as these people have done it (and sorry to say but bullshit they are successful). IF that worked then everyone would be doing that, right? The purpose of breeding is to better the breed. HOw do you expect to do that if you use inferior genetics? Because the horses that are on small farms are not the same quality of Shining Spark or Smart Little Lena. These horses are valuable and people pay money for them. The better the genetics the more money you get.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: I did not say QH, just check the leading sire lists. You should know what the top bloodlines are in your breed...

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: Khemosabi....a backyard born horse.....and you know what.....all ive been trying to get in your little brain this whole time, is that horses form small farms, who are unknown, DO NOT have inferior genetics.....one day you'll learn....and im sorry to say, that until then, you are not more educated then me on this matter

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Yes I am because you are paying for the repuation of these breeders!!!! It means something when you mare has been bred by Carol Rose, and not Joe Schmo. Small unknown farms, well golly, thewy must raise nice horses, since we've never heard of them and there horses are not successful at shows...why would I think they have nice horses?

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: well...if you took the time to actually go LOOK at their horse...in real life i mean, not on paper.....and research their pedigrees, and their offspring...maybe you would find that they are good horses, and had they been shown, would be succesful

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Please, the bottom line is that you'll not be successful with unknown horses, especially since you won't show or advertise them. Good luck selling the breeding stock to the public, they dont want excuses, they want horses they have read about. NOt well golly he is a nice horse, just no show record or no ones ever even heard of him as he does not even have ads anywhere. You don't get it, you just want to whine and complain and try to succeed on your noname horses, that will never work. Even if he is thre greatest stud in the world, no one will know and his foals will all be practically worthless.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: and when i say research pedigrees...i mean look at the sire and dam, and seeing what they produce....not reading names on paper...

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Why would we expect them to be successful in a highly specialized event where breeding is everything and they dont have it? Cutting is 99% instinctual and you expect something that does not have the genetic makeup to do the event go in and be competitive against a Smart Little Lena. You'll be laughed out of the arena.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: again...never said i wouldnt show or advertise my horses....i said i would by or breed to horses who weren't shown or advertised.....and sweetheart....i know what the public wants, because i am the public...i have been and still am the person out there buying the horses....and yes hun, i do research the market

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: But lets see Daddy does not have a show career and only gets 5 mares a year, and realistically only 40% shown, so he has two foals shown. And they are going to be more than average? Especially when you are looking at breeding stock, you are going to buy a son of an unknown? Right, that is a great way to make money off of his stud fee....

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Yeah you did...unknown farms with people who choose not to play the politics, that is exactly what you said, comment 05:49:37, if you researched the market then why dont you know who the leading sires are and what babies are selling off of what daddy? Cuz I can do that with my eyes closed but you dont know....

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: lol....wow....i guess you'll just have to live and learn, because you obvisouly have never been out in the real world.....if i horse were to go into a show ring, and the judges weren't told the name or breeding of the horse.....oh no! oh dear! how ever would they judge it!!

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Your comment was...you would buy horses that werent shown. Therefore your horse is not shown or advertised. You are contradicting yourself....

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: i dont know....oh..i se...you've been foloowing me since i was 5 and know everything ive learn....yes...i did say that....HOWEVER...ok listen...last time im going to say it...i wasnt refering to myself, but to people i've worked with, and bought from, and will continue to buy from

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Ummmm yep they do gievt he name of the sire and dam in the western world. The point is that your noname horse does not have the genetics to compete against a well bred horse. PERIOD! And yes I have been to the real world, at least I have worked at breeding and showing places AROUND THE WORLD and the US. Seems to me I have seen a hell of alot more of the industry than you have. I have worked at the top with World Champions and Reining Team Captains.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: NO I have learned more in the last five years than you have in your entire life it seems. But you are buying noname, not advertised horses, therefore your horse that you just got is yours but not shown and not advertised. How is that not refering to yourself?

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: ahem...ok....i said..."IF" they didnt know the bredding of the horse...and i said, yes that i would buy horses that werent shown from small farms....i never said i wouldnt show them myself

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: But you are still having horses that dont have show records and are nonames. What is your point cuz you still are owning horses that are showless and nonames.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: The whole point is that alot of traits are heritable...trainability and athleticness. When you purchase the 'name' you are purchsing the reputation and genetics of the horse!!! The better bred the better they should perform. Why waste your time with unknowns?

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: <and when i say research pedigrees...i mean look at the sire and dam, and seeing what they produce....not reading names on paper...> What do you think people do? They are not looking at names they are looking at auction prices, soundness, trainability....on and on. Your circular thinking makes me laugh. You should take a genetics course, as I would hate to have you breeding horses.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: honestly.....i care nothing about reputation of any horse but the particular one im looking at, and i even take that with a grain of salt.yes, right now, the horses i currently own have either little or no show record. however they are young, and have yet to be shown. i have plans to show them, and if i didnt know they would do well, i wouldnt waste the money on the show fees. and my horses do have names....however they go by their own names....not those of their, sire, grandsire or birth place

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: auction prices...oh yes...i woudnt dream of buying a horse without checking auction prices....i've taken courses....ive worked with breeding...ive foaled out mares and raised the foals...i know what im doing;)

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Wait when looking at breeding horses, why aren't you looking at mom and dad? After all genetics are herediatry, so if your horse does not have a good mom or dad what makes you think that they will produce good foals? YOu need to grow up and learn about breeding, seriously, unless they have good genetics then they are not going to produce great foals. The whole name is tied in with the repuation, and show records!!! Unless the horse has a show record and a good pedigree chances are highly unlikely that they are going to produce foals that go on and have great success in the show pen. Looking at the leading sires list all are breed to the hilt... Smart Little Lena, Shining Spark, on and on...

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Honey how do you make money breeding horses?

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: By SELLING YOUR STOCK!!!!!!! You should be looking at auction prices as they affect how much you are going to make off of stud fees and how much your foal will likely bring.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: I recall us talking about breeding horses, not buying horses. That is the argument. Stop trying to avoid the subject.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: when did i ever say anything about not looking at the parents? and you seem to be talking about breeding horses to sell....so then yes, we are talking about what to look for when buying horses...grow up huh? sorry sweety, but ive been on both side of the industry, big farm, world champions trainers and breeders.....ridiculously priced stud fees...and the small farms, with just a few high quality horses, who a re mostly used for pleasure, and small breeding operations.....and horses on both sides are OF EQUAL VALUE...they aren't price they same and in now way live the same life...but all things being equal....the horses are equal. thats all im trying to get through your head.

2005-03-24 [freakchild]: however i see theere is much of the horse industry that you are un-aware of, and know nothing about, so i am done arguing with you, and i am haivng a nice conversation about horses with someone who is a little less naive about the way things work, and really im quite tired of trying to help you understand soemthing so simple . so have a nice night, and go do whatever it is you do

2005-03-24 [stephomelon]: And this argument is a perfect example of why I am GLAD that I am nothing more than a rider, and why I don't intend on breeding. I'll have my say anyway, though a lot of it is based on what I read nearer the start of this conversation. OK. Yes, horses with top lines, proven sires and whatnot will almost undoubtedly be successful. You think that the founding stock of most breeds were produced out of luck? No, they were bred specifically for their traits, which would carry on to their foals. This is exactly the same with making a champion horse, you breed the right horses so the right traits are passed down. However, there are a few flukes out there, horses out of unknown parentage who have->

2005-03-24 [stephomelon]: the calibre to go out there and make a name for themselves. I don't know much about QHs, all I can think of is Phar Lap, though I'm not sure how well known he is in the US. He was bred in NZ, had no brilliant lines to speak of and therefore was sold for a very low price. Only two people ever had faith in him those first few years, and he went on to become one of the most well known horses in Australian racing history. Now, I'm not saying that this happens all the time. Phar Lap was one in a million, I'm just saying that it can happen. I don't believe in predjudice against a horse because of it's lines, and I have little respect for those with this predjudice. Did anyone see Andrew Hoy ->

2005-03-24 [stephomelon]: at the Olympic games...his mount was a rescue from a slaughter house. Sure, he didn't win any medals but the fact that the horse as been rescued and trainned, and made it to that level is still astounding. If Mr. Pracatan had have had a pedigree, he'd never have turned up in a slaughter house. It just goes to show that lines aren't everything, though that doesn't mean I'm not saying they don't play a major part.

2005-03-24 [stephomelon]: I guess to cut to the chase I'd say horses with well known, proven lines have more chance of doing well in the showring (or other chosen event), yet the possibility of a "nobody" horse comingin and wiping the board should still be considered, it's happened before.

2005-03-24 [stephomelon]: Then again, when you think about it the more people that think breeding is important, the more people are going to ensure that they're horses have the best lines, and the unknowns are going to become more and more rare.

2005-03-24 [stephomelon]: Lol, Ok I've had my say. It's just my opinion...please dont hurt me! *goes to hug her crossbred, badly conformed, yet intelligent, cute and nifty pony* That's right...he doesnt even have papers, we don't even know his breed and I think he's the greatest thing with hooves.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Well I should make the point that competition is a result of genetics, temporary environmental effects, and permentant environmental effects. So a horse could theorectically luck out and get a great trainer (permenant environmental) and have the best of luck at shows (draw the best cattle, etc) and be outstanding. However when this animal goes to breed they don't produce their level of competition as it was not their genetics that made them great. But if you go with proven bloodlines then you have a much better chance of getting a good competition horse. I actually agree with you [stephlomelon]! The more you run your mouth [freakchild] the less I think you know an outstanding horse when -->

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: see one. NO the horses at small breeding operations are not the same quality of the stallions standing around Pilot POint, Texas, where all the big million dollar farms are. If they were why are they not on the leading sires list since they are part of the cream of the crop when looking at their genetics, which should be passed on. If they are so great where are there offspring that are great? If you are not selling your breeding stock then you are breeding as a hobby, not a business. All you do is go in circles [freakchild] and I really don't think that you have any experience at all. At least you can check out my page and see what horses I've seen and where I've worked,a nd with who.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: I want to make it very clear that pedigree is important when selecting breeding stock! If you are looking at a trail/local show gelding then I would go with whatever. But especially in the western world, the bloodlines have specific traits that you want (or dont). For example, the Peppy San Badger horses are known to be Hot, the Dash ta Fames are known to be very athletic. SO you see why it is IMPORTANT to consider how the horse will be bred as alot of traits are common to a stallion's offspring.

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: Here is a quote from many time World Champion Bob Avila in his great book Win with Bob Avila, on page 41, "When I am in the market for a breeding stallion, paper catches my eye first. If I like the way a colt is bred, I'll go look at him in person" and pg. 38, "When you buy a horse without contemporary market credentials, no matter how cheap he was, you automatically reduce both the market for his/her foals and the price you can get for them"

2005-03-24 [Saulegraza]: page 42, "You'll hear people justify the purchase of such a horse by saying, "He could have won as much as his brother but he got gurt" or "He was just as good as So-and-so, but he did not have the money behind him to prove it". When you get right down to it, who really cares? The justifications won't make his foals sell better. You can whip the sad story out on everybody in the world, sand maybe there'll be a few people who'll buy into it. But you'll have a hard time establishinga profitable breeding business around "what could've been" as oppossed to "here's what he did".

2005-04-01 [Roccoriel]: In Memorium- Hollywood Dun It (1983-March 30, 2005) The NRHA $4 million sire was put down after a battle with testicular cancer but leaves a legacy to the reining horse industry in his sons and daughters.

2005-04-01 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: *cries*

2005-04-01 [abandonedhouse7 7]: Oh no! *sniffle* on the subject of putting down my cat was put down today. *sniff*

2005-04-01 [abandonedhouse7 7]: However, it was real peaceful and the vet said that she was senile and probably had diabetes so it was for the best.

2005-04-01 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: *hugs you tightly*

2005-04-02 [01234]: She was talking about her cat.

2005-04-02 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: I know she was.....she kinda said her cat was put down..

2005-04-02 [01234]: I wasn't talking to you... the comment I had been referring too has been removed. I'm sorry your cat died [abandonedhouse7 7].

2005-04-02 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: Alright....it's a simple misunderstanding considering that comment was directly under mine.

2005-04-03 [abandonedhouse7 7]: lol aww thanks you guys! She's gone to a better place now, I've realised that. It's just sad she's gone. Ah well. I have my horse. *hugs everyone* ^_^

2005-04-03 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: *hugs back* Just never forget her...

2005-04-04 [abandonedhouse7 7]: lol I won't in a hurry, we had her for ten years and she's done a lot of stupid things. She used to sleep with her tongue sticking out. :P

2005-04-04 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: that's so adorabl ^_^

2005-04-04 [abandonedhouse7 7]: lol

2005-04-05 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: My cat kitten or cinnamon (same cat different nickname) runs into the fridge all the time

2005-04-05 [01234]: LOL why does it do that?

2005-04-05 [abandonedhouse7 7]: lol, when my friend stayed at her uncles in America, they all went out for the day and when they came back the found the cat IN the fridge and it had eaten almost everything LOL

2005-04-05 [01234]: OH NO!!! And it didn't get sick?

2005-04-05 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: Man....huyngry cat......My cat does that because shes' weird...

2005-04-05 [abandonedhouse7 7]: No it didnt! It's a weird cat... bit like my mate's uncle LOL

2005-04-05 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: oi....My kitty nips me when I pet her..weirdo...

2005-04-05 [01234]: HAHAHA that's funny

2005-04-06 [abandonedhouse7 7]: lol, Sweep used to drool when you stroked her lol.

2005-04-06 [01234]: Oh man, my cat Sabrina does that... it's so funny, but it's so cute.

2005-04-06 [abandonedhouse7 7]: its wet. lol :p

2005-04-06 [01234]: Yeah I suppose so...

2005-04-08 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: < My siamese still does that....she'll shake her head and get you all wet

2005-06-28 [HE IS MY ONE TRUE LOVE!]: hi

2005-06-28 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: hey ther

2005-06-29 [HE IS MY ONE TRUE LOVE!]: sup

2005-06-29 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: The opposite of down.

2005-06-30 [Rydia]: wheee!!! Theres a movie coming out in October called Dreamer, about a race horsie! YAY FOR TBs! (Right Holly ^_^?) if ya wanna know more check it out here: http://www.dreamworks.com/Dreamer/

2005-06-30 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: Heh...yea...I love Giz monster ^_^ *clickies on link and oogles at it*

2005-06-30 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: A tear dropped from my eye when I watched the trailer. I can't wait for the movie to come out!

2005-07-01 [Rydia]: me too! we should go see it >_> when it comes out

2005-07-01 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: yes yes we should...

2005-07-02 [Rydia]: ^_^ fun

2005-07-18 [Krackle]: hi ppl do you mind if i join?

2005-07-18 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: Nopers...go right ahead ^_^

2005-07-18 [Krackle]: cool...how many horses do you have?

2005-07-18 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: I don't have any any more. I had an arab and a pinto pony. Now I just worked with a retired racer named Gizzy. He's so awesome ^_^

2005-07-18 [Krackle]: how come you dont have them anymore? cool. my horse is to lazy he couldnt be a racer lol

2005-07-18 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: Because we moved from the country back into the city and while they stayed with my grama before we moved out into the coutry...time passes and everything changes...and unfortunetly..my grama was not able to care for Sham and Sasha the way they needed to be cared for...so we found them new homes...

2005-07-19 [Krackle]: that must have been hard to do. i know when i had to sell my pony even though she was so stuburn and mean it was still hard to do

2005-07-19 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: Yea...Mum and I didn't shed a tear till after we had loaded and seen Sham (the horse) off...then mum and i broke down...

2005-07-19 [Krackle]: i cryed when the boy took her halter off and put theirs on and handed me skipper (the new horse)

2005-07-19 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: It was trade?

2005-07-20 [Leelo]: Hey I'm sorry for advertisin, but I need some members... lol btw... I've joined this wiki,... anyways if you are a artist, writter, poet, computer graphic artist, or a photographer, maybe you might be interrested in joinin Random Art Contest You can submitt anythin in it. The contest will start at the first of August, and if you don't wanna submitt anythin, maybe you might be interrested in becomin a judge... Well anyways hope to heart from some of you :)

2005-07-20 [Krackle]: yea....i feel bad but i knew i couldnt keep her...she was uncontrollable everyone that sat on her got bucked off....

2005-08-01 [love is confusing]: hi wuts up?

2005-08-30 [PiT bUlL gIrL_33]: i love horses we have six of them

2005-08-30 [love is confusing]: i used to have a horse but mine died from a skin disease and i miss him so much

2005-08-30 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: A horse I once owned was put down alittle over a week ago. *hugs you* I understand in my own way how feel.

2005-08-30 [love is confusing]: thanks i mean he was also my first horse and i loved him so much and i miss him a lot

2005-08-30 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: Tell me about him.

2005-08-30 [love is confusing]: well wut do you wanna know about him?

2005-08-30 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: what breed, name, markings, everything you wanna tell.

2005-08-30 [love is confusing]: um well he was a pure bred quarter horse um his name was shine um he was a real pretty brown with black mane and tail with white markings on all of his legs and on his face

2005-08-30 [love is confusing]: i'm gonna try to get a pic up of him soon so you can see for yourself

2005-09-01 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: that would be awesome. I feel really bad about what happened.

2005-09-02 [love is confusing]: yeah i just wished i could have been with him though before they had to put him down but yeah i miss him a lot

2005-09-02 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: What happened that you weren't able to be there with him

2005-09-02 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: What happened that you weren't able to be there with him?

2005-09-02 [love is confusing]: well you see i live in alaska and my horse was in texas i went there for spring break and i visited some friends of some friends lol and they let me ride a horse that they owned and they saw that we bomded and she just randomly gave me the horse for free i was so happy but then like 2-3 weeks later he started getting sicker and sicker and then like a month later they put him down it was really depressing along with having to give away my dog i was miserable

2005-09-02 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: Aww I'm so sorry to hear about that. Fate is so cruel sometimes. >_<

2005-09-02 [love is confusing]: yeah i know and with more things going on it doesn't make my misery any better

2005-09-03 [Rydia]: But the good thing is now you have your very own guadian Pony (they are all ponies to me ^_^)He is at rest,and will never feel pain again... except maybe when you feel sorrow when missing him. Because I dont think he'd want you to feel bad. He probably knew his time wouldnt be long, but still chose you to bond with. That itself is very special. You two will meet again someday ^_^

2005-09-03 [Rydia]: That goes for Sham too, you know... Try to remember what was, and remember the good times... Try not to think on the what is.

2005-09-03 [love is confusing]: thank you, you're rite i just need to think of all the good times that i spent with him i really miss him but i know that we'll be together again someday

2005-09-03 [Rydia]: Thats the spirit! ^_^

2005-09-03 [love is confusing]: lol yeah

2005-09-06 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: ^_^ Such love

2005-09-06 [Rydia]: Indeed... Its a comforting though, knowing that they loved you. Lovey love love ^_^ yay

2005-09-07 [love is confusing]: ^_^

2005-09-07 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: *thinks of horsey freeze tag* I hope Gizzy still loves me after yesterday's arguement. We ended on a good note but still...

2005-09-07 [Saulegraza]: Check out PHAE's wiki on cloning.

2005-09-07 [// Grace //.And..Bend]: I did alittle while ago...